In today’s conversation, we welcome Dr. Elliot Cohen, an expert in both academic philosophy and clinical work, to discuss his unique approach to integrating philosophy and psychology. We begin by exploring Dr. Cohen’s journey, which started with his observation of widespread conflicts and irrational thinking.
Dr. Cohen goes on to describe the early resistance to applied philosophy in the world, but highlights its current acceptance and relevance – something I found particularly encouraging. He recounts his collaboration with Albert Ellis, the founder of Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT), which significantly influenced his development of Logic-Based Therapy (LBT). This collaboration helped him create a structured approach to therapy that emphasizes logical reasoning to address irrational beliefs and emotional distress. Dr. Cohen explains that LBT is rooted in ancient philosophical concepts, particularly those of Aristotle, and focuses on practical reasoning to improve mental well-being.
During our conversation, I raise the point that some may view logic as insufficient for addressing emotions and intuition – a concern I imagine many people might share. Dr. Cohen responds by emphasizing the interconnectedness of thoughts, emotions, and neurological processes, arguing that understanding these connections is crucial for effective therapy. While LBT is logic-based, it also respects the role of intuition and feelings, integrating them into a comprehensive approach to mental health.
We then delve into the criticisms of LBT, particularly the idea that it relies on a specific type of logic. Dr. Cohen addresses this by highlighting the neurological basis of practical reasoning and the importance of aligning therapeutic approaches with scientific understanding. He also points out the inclusivity of LBT, which can incorporate various philosophical perspectives to suit individual needs, making it a versatile tool for psychotherapy.
Our conversation shifts to the application of LBT in addressing perfectionism, a common issue that Dr. Cohen has extensively studied. He explains that demanding perfectionism often underlies emotional distress and that LBT helps individuals recognize and modify these perfectionistic demands. By doing so, individuals can achieve a more balanced and realistic approach to their goals, reducing self-damaging behaviors and improving overall well-being.
Finally, we discuss the future of philosophical counseling and LBT, where Dr. Cohen emphasizes the importance of integrating these approaches into mainstream psychotherapy. He mentions the growing recognition of philosophical counseling as a profession, particularly in Romania, and highlights various programs and centers worldwide that offer training in LBT. Our conversation concludes with a discussion of Dr. Cohen’s recent and upcoming books, which further explore the applications of LBT in different areas of life, including romantic relationships.
Links:
Logic-Based Therapy and Consultation
Transcript (AI-generated, so I do apologize for any mistakes/ errors!)
Imi Lo
Thank you so much for doing this. It’s been a few years, I think, since I first come to nu you and trained with you in philosophical consulting, counseling, inquiry. It was a great experience for me. So it’s a real honor to have you here.
Elliot
My pleasure.
Imi Lo
You have had a long and distinguished career in both academic philosophy and clinical work. Such a unique combination of philosophy and psychology, which I think is a convergence point that many people are curious with, and encouragingly, so many more people are coming to try and understand. Do they overlap? Do they intersect? Are they compatible? But before we dive into all that complexity, would you mind sharing a little bit more about your own journey? What initially drawn you to this discipline and came up with your own school and everything? How did it evolve?
Elliot
Well, it was a persistent thought that I had that when I looked around as a young man, there were so many people embroiled in conflicts and anger and wars and all sorts of unfortunate and avoidable turmoil. And it seemed to me that, of course, in logic 101 could have ameliorated a lot of confusions and disentangle some of the irrational thinking that led to these kinds of adversity. And so that was a constant theme. I also thought that value was always a function, somehow, of pain and suffering and the quest for happiness, and that we wouldn’t have concepts like good and bad if indeed there were no sufferings and pains and pleasures and the like. And so these were constant themes. And even as an undergraduate, I was wrestling with these ideas and trying to develop some kind of conceptual framework. And that continued in graduate school at Brown University, where I studied under Roderick Chisholm, which is one of the most highly acclaimed analytic philosophers. But I was looking for, I was studying axiology, the theory of value, and looking for some connections there with these, with these themes. And I was into what does a.
Elliot
What does it mean to say that something has value? What does it mean to say that something makes something valuable? These were conceptual questions, but they were not directly head on with normative types of considerations, like what things are valuable, except for the fact that I saw that connection. And so when I graduated from Brown, my first job was at the University of Florida. And it was in the applied region, which I had not done much in applied know work. And this was in the medical school, Shands Medical College, and also the Holland, was then the Holland Law center. So I had a postdoc there and was doing a bunch of stuff with more applied work. And I earned the title of being the hard humanist because I wanted to just do analytics stuff. And as it turned out that there wasn’t much market for that in the teaching field because the students I ultimately started working with didn’t really have a clue as to what I was saying.
Imi Lo
Was at that niche.
Elliot
So I needed to do more applied stuff. And I looked around and I noticed there was very little in the realm of applied philosophy. And so what’s by that? Actually, yeah, I decided I was, this was an early, early time. This was pre applied, before applied philosophy was much of anything. And so I decided I would start a journal called Applied Philosophy. And, and I couldn’t find any work in it. One of the first articles I published in it was an article that was against applied philosophy. It was entitled the immorality of Applied Philosophy. It suggested that when you dilute philosophy with practice, it deprives students of the rigor of philosophy, and it’s immoral to do that. But that’s what I published. As it went on, it more stuff started to crop up, and I was attempting to develop the literature and apply philosophy. This was the first comprehensive journal of applied Philosophy in the world. So it was quite a milestone, I think.
Imi Lo
Has it changed now, do you think?
Elliot
Excuse me?
Imi Lo
Do you think it has changed now that applies?
Elliot
Oh, yeah, it’s changed remarkably now. I mean, applied philosophies on the maps. But then it wasn’t, and there was considerable opposition to it. All the chairs in philosophy at that time were dead set against having applied mechanisms. So I’ve always seen a philosophical practice as an outgrowth of applied philosophy. And one of the first things I did in applied philosophy, this is prior, actually, I started this work prior to founding the journal, was again at the University of Florida, where, you know, the shift was towards, you know, doing something that worked for students. And I had a grant to develop work in value theory and applied value theory. And so I ended up, my first book was a book called making value judgments, principles of sound reasoning, which came out of that. And after publishing that, I was working in that field trying to make connections between this idea that people suffer because of irrational thinking and trying to help them to do and feel better. And my wife, who was a graduate student at the time, was studying a guy by the name of Albert Ellis, and he was the, as we, as most was in psychology counseling.
Elliot
And she pointed him out and said, you know, a lot of stuff that I’m studying with him, this sounds a lot like what you’re doing. And I think, well, that’s interesting. And so I started reading some of his rational mode of behavior therapy. And for your viewers who don’t know, Albert Ellis was the founder of Cognitive behavior Therapy, CBT. There was no CBT before. Really, Ellis? I know Beck is sometimes also considered a co founder, but actually Ellis was doing stuff before Beckley. So anyway, I decided I’d get certified in it. And I met Albert Ellis and eventually started to talk to him pretty regularly and became a sort of philosopher on call for the center in New York.
Imi Lo
Oh, really?
Elliot
Yeah. And so we became friends and he became a very strong, you know, gave me lots of incentive and endorsed my work and wrote endorsements on my books and stuff. So it was kind of a meaning of Ellis and what was going on in psychology and what I had been doing previously that led me to this idea. Well, this is a kind of logic based therapy. And that was the beginning of what I started calling it logic based therapy. And I always considered it. And I told Al, you know, that this was what I was going to do was to. Logic based therapy was a version of rational motive behavior therapy, and that I would continue this highly philosophically charged version of it and logicized version of it as in honor of him and the work that he began. And that’s what I’ve done pretty much for the, the rest of my life, you know, doing, occasionally dipping into things like, you know, freelance journalism and, you know, writing books on politics and, you know, doing, doing media analysis and stuff. But it’s always come back really to, you know, this idea of philosophical practice helping people to solve problems of everyday living.
Imi Lo
Yeah. Which is certainly in fashion now, you know, especially around things like stoicism. It’s really proliferating bookshelves, even amongst general public, so. But I didn’t know that back then you had to fight that battle.
Elliot
Yeah, yeah, it was an ongoing uphill battle.
Imi Lo
Well, thank you for laying the ground for many of us who come after. So, you know, I. I kind of. I am very new to philosophy, and I have very. The mental understanding of it. In my mind, they kind of broadly been separated into this whole analytic camp and the continental, kind of more postmodern everything gold. I know it’s a very simplified categorization, but would you say you lean more towards the logic analytic side, or do you take sides or do you have a leaning or particular interest? It sounds like you’re very, you’re the roots of. It was very much rooted in logic.
Elliot
Yeah. And that’s a great question. And coming out of grad school, I was, you know, the hard humanist. Again, I was, you know, the analytic guy, you know, who did analytic philosophy? My colleagues wanted to do something different, and I was pushing against it. And eventually what happened was I started to see the wisdom of the continental philosophers and the way they did philosophy. It’s not an exclusive country club. Everybody’s welcome in logic based therapy. You know, it has that theme. That is to say that any types of philosophy that works for you, that makes, you know, helps you to solve your problems, is the kind that you should adopt. And it’s closed minded to just say, you know, analytic philosophy is the key. So, logic based therapy has the analytic side. You know, the first step of logic based therapy, as you know, having studied it, is to identify the reasoning and to look for the fallacies and do that kind of analysis of your. Of your thinking. But by the time you get to the fifth, fourth, and fifth stages of it, would you find, you know, the virtues that overcome those irrational thinking.
Elliot
And then you. You aspire to your philosophical. To follow your philosophical lights, whatever lights guide you, you know? And so if you’re, you know, a. A Cartesian or you’re an existentialist, that’s where you’re at. And you should follow those philosophical lights if they’re helping you to deal with an existential crisis or deal with other problems of living, that philosophy can provide some insight for. And again, the essence of applied philosophy. The last step of. Of the process is to apply the philosophy. And I say it specifically, you apply your philosophy. So, see, there’s the connection very clearly in applied philosophy.
Imi Lo
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, before we go into further complexity, maybe it’s worth telling our audience what you have developed from your journey. So, the school of the form of therapy that you’ve developed is called logic based therapy. I think while some people might have some understanding of CBT or IEBT, they may not know what it is. What’s logic based therapy? So, I think it would be best if it comes from you to tell our audience what it actually is. What does a typical session look like? What problem would it help me solve?
Elliot
Yeah, very, very good. Well, you know, in CBT or Rebt, which is the first of these versions of so called CBT, the idea is that it’s your irrational thinking and not the events themselves that cause you to be unhappy, that creates emotions like depression and anxiety and so forth. So. And this is. This is an ancient theme, and it’s one. Albert Ellis was very much interested in the. In the nexus between philosophy and psychology. He was a guy that. That’s why I worked so well with him because he loved philosophy and. But this was his very keynote of the approach was, you know, a stoic concept. Epictetus said, it’s your interpretation, know, of the events that. That upset you. It’s not the events alone per se.
Imi Lo
This.
Elliot
Yeah, it’s hardcore. Yeah. Right. And so this was a keynote of CBT REbT and it’s also a keynote of logic based therapy which holds them all together. But what’s different about logic based therapy was an attempt to construct more of a humanistic, a humanities, I should say, not humanistic, but humanities approach, where those who are steeped in psychology were seeing psychology as a social science quest for the causes of things. What causes somebody to be upset? Well, for Ellis, it was what he called activating events, which are the events in your life, plus a belief about the activating events, which together cause you to have certain behavior and emotional consequences like depression, or anxiety, or anger, guilt. And in contrast, what I was looking for was a way of applying logic, you know, not nothing looking for causality, but looking for formal relationships between propositions. And so what I did was what I called syllogize, the so called ABC approaches, as a causal approach that Ellis took, which meant that I was looking for, you know, how the reasoning works, not looking for causal laws that connect certain thoughts and conditions to do emotions. But I was looking for the reasoning process.
Elliot
And I saw logic based therapy as an attempt to examine the arguments, the logical arguments that people have that undercut their quest for happiness and frustrate them and create emotional discord between themselves and others, and on a broader level, between nations and leading to war and so forth. So I was looking for a way of analyzing the reasoning process, and that was a different way of looking at it. So I came at it from the perspective of a philosopher, where looking for applying logic to reasoning processes to see what’s irrational or not. And Ellis was looking at it from a social scientist perspective. So when I looked at this, I studied in great detail the work of Aristotle and specifically his nicomachean ethics.
Imi Lo
Yeah.
Elliot
And Aristotle introduced this idea of a practical syllogism. And the practical syllogism basically was a form of deductive reasoning that for him, it said the conclusion was an action or an emotion. People rarely realize that they meant also an emotion. But if I said, if I make a mistake, then I’m a failure. And then, you know, and that’s my rule that I’ve accepted, and then I make a mistake, I’m going to immediately feel real down and I’m going to start chastising myself. I’m going to feel like a failure, say. And so I talked about the premises, and eventually I gave up the idea that it’s an action, that the conclusion, you know, is actions result from your conclusions, but the conclusions themselves are the ones that are drawn from the premises. So, for instance, if I fail, if I make a mistake, that I’m a failure, I made a mistake, therefore I’m a failure. And when I tell myself I’m a failure and I start these thoughts about having to succeed and I didn’t, and these float around in my head and in various elliptical fashion, I don’t think of it formally like that. I start to feel depressed or down about myself.
Elliot
So what I was able to do was to grasp the cognitive components of what an emotion was. That is, these premises that I have, they weren’t events. They were beliefs about events, you know, and that’s an important distinction between RebT and LBT. Ellis was talking about the event, the activating event. I’m talking about beliefs about the event, you know. And so that’s a report that I file often. I typically file under a report under a rule like I, you know, if I make a mistake, I’m a failure. The report is, well, I did. I made a big mistake. That’s my report. And once those two premises come together, then I start thinking of myself as a failure. And then there’s behavioral constant. When I say to myself, well, if I’m a failure, then I might as well give up because I can’t stand to live like this. So then what I call constipate myself and I stay and I hold this misery in, and I refuse to excrete it. And I continue, you know, going on. And I could lead again to, you know, these thoughts, you know, churning over and over again in your mind, obsessively, you know, thinking about what a failure I am.
Elliot
And then eventually what this does is create a lot of stress. So we start looking. I started to get interested in neurology, you know, and how this process, you know, interfaces with your, with your, um, uh, your, your system, emotional systems here. And ultimately what, what happens is you have the amygdala, you know, that starts going off and sending all directions, you know, to your hypothalamus and that, you know, sending neurological impulses to your muscles and then also to your, your pituitary gland. And so you have this, uh, amygdala, hypothalamus, pituitary axis that goes off and it creates stress in your body. So it starts, you know, you have the emotions through your thought process, but that, you know, relates to your. The other aspect, you know, of your body, you know, your emotive systems. And. And that’s what you call stress. And. And this can be exacerbated because you. The more stressful you get, the more irrational you start thinking, and you get these emotional loops and the like. So that’s where LBT is at. And, you know, we’ve studied the connections between thoughts and emotions and feelings. And at a deeper level, when you start to look at what the.
Elliot
These syllogisms look like, there’s different levels. On a. On a logical linguistic level, it’s. Well, if I. If I make a mistake, I’m a failure. I made a mistake, therefore I’m a failure. But at a phenomenological level, you know, it’s either feelings that you’re having, thoughts and feelings. I’m thinking of myself as having made a mistake. I’m associating that with this feeling that ultimately I express as being a failure. And so there’s these connections that build up between certain events in your life as you interpret them through your premises and the way you feel and then the way you act. So logic based therapy ultimately gives you more than one level. Neurological level. What’s going on? Neurological level, what’s going on? At a phenomenological level, the thoughts and the feelings that are connected, and then neurological, linguistic level, where you’re actually expressing this. And so that’s, you know, that’s the way. That’s the way it works. And, you know, my studies and studies of tons of functional mris suggests that the mind thinks in terms of practical syllogisms. There’s certain parts of the brain, like the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, which is invested in this type of reasoning.
Imi Lo
Yeah, well, you’ve half answered the next question, because the next challenge I was going to have for you is that, well, you championed logic as a tool for navigating many life’s complexities, including even existential questions. But there would be many philosophers and I imagine artists and people arguing that, well, logic, I think, in people’s head, there are this clear distinction sometimes between logic, reason, and feelings and emotions. And so sometimes you would argue, well, just logic alone cannot bend my mind. So how does it account for the role of, say, intuition, emotion, or even the more irrational, quote unquote, aspects of a meaningful life? I think by mentioning the neurological link, you have answered that. Is there anything you would like to add on that.
Elliot
Yeah. Yeah. It’s been a criticism not just of LBT, but of CBT in general, that it deals with the thoughts and not with the feelings and the other aspects here. And as you get deeper into what practical reasoning is, you cannot separate it from your feelings and the visceral aspects of it. Like I mentioned, it’s called the limbic system, the stuff that I was talking about. You can’t really separate these out neurologically, but also phenomenologically, because what’s going through your mind when you’re. When you’re talking logic, you know, this logic when you’re setting up these syllogisms in your mind are associative relationships between thoughts and feelings. It’s about feelings. I mean, when I say I’m a failure, I have a, you know, I have this visceral gut, you know, sense of. It feels bad, and I direct it, you know, to myself, that disgusted feeling is associated with me. So you can’t really. It’s artificial to say, well, you’re talking about thoughts. If that’s all you were talking about and you said thoughts and emotions are separate, then you. You would be guilty of that mistake. But logic based therapy doesn’t say that you can’t separate these out of.
Elliot
And as far as does it, you know, people have irrational thoughts, and aren’t they, should they be free to have irrational thoughts? And isn’t that part of, you know, their happiness, having these irrational thoughts?
Imi Lo
Well, it’s intuition.
Elliot
Intuition? Yeah. Well, I mean, intuition is an interesting concept because very often your intuitions, I think, I really believe that people have intuitions. If you have a gut sense that something is wrong, for instance, oftentimes it is, but it’s because there’s someone thinking, isn’t it?
Imi Lo
It’s just your brain is doing very rapid work for you. It feels like a come of a moment, but actually, there’s a lot of logic behind it.
Elliot
Well, just a little bit of neurology here. Basically, we sort of walk around with two types of brain. One is the one that I was kind of describing, but from a top to bottom approach. But it’s all. But typically, what we do is filter things from the bottom up. And, you know, so when you have an intuition, that’s that limbic system working, because you have the amygdala and the hippocampus store up certain memories of things that have happened and even the feelings associated with stored. And so when you have an event in your life that seems threatening in some way, it’s because somehow you’re associating it, you see, and you may, and this is all done unconsciously. So that’s where the origins, I believe, of intuition goes. Yeah, and it’s real. So you’re, you know, your thought thoughtful brain needs to sometimes listen to that, you know, more reptilian side. Otherwise, you know, you can make mistakes. So go with your gut. I oftentimes tell my family members, go with your gut because it’s there for a reason. And, yeah, so that’s that I thoroughly agree with. And as far as, you know, I mean, kind of like Fritz perls who said, lose your mind and come to your senses.
Elliot
I mean, can people just be irrational? And that’s their style within parameters. I mean, logic based therapy has these, what it calls cardinal fallacies. And within the realm of these cardinal fallacies, for instance, just blind conformity to what others are saying will get you into trouble in the long run and so forth. There’s lots of room for being quote unquote irrational. But if you don’t care about messing up and ruining your life, then be as rational as you want. But logic based therapy can provide some parameters within which to operate, and it’s quite inclusive, but many different lifestyles and what John Stuart Mill called experiments of living. So it’s open to, you know, great diversity and tolerance for alternative lifestyles within.
Imi Lo
Yeah, very clear. Thank you. Since I’m here to play devil’s advocate, what some other critiques have you gotten about this kind of logic based therapy? And. Yeah, how could you address them?
Elliot
Well, I think that, you know, there are those that it kind of goes back to what we’re saying, that, you know, logic. Well, one criticism that I’ve had was that you’re using a certain type of logic and aren’t there different types of logic? You know, what, what makes you think that your logic is better than anybody else’s logic? And the answer that I’ve given, you know, to that was, well, I’ve, you know, we’ve researched, you know, how the brain actually works. See, and because the brain works according to these types of practical reasoning chains that LBT studies, that’s the logic we run on. And there’s certain things you can learn if you try to develop a philosophical approach independently of how the brain works, it’s not going to be very helpful. If you look at studies like Kante. Kant was talking about the categories of the mind and how the mind creates and fashions reality and stuff in terms of seeing things, in terms of causality and time and space. Well, I mean, the reason why he’s relevant today is because some of the concepts that he came up with are actually corroborated by science.
Elliot
And so you can’t really separate applied philosophical inquiry from what’s going on in the world of science. And I think that’s something that settles a lot because applied philosophy, fond of saying, has two masters, practice and theory, you know, and you both have to work out, you know, in the world. And so it’s important, you know, to, you know, key into the, you know, the science, you know, behind, you know, what you’re doing. You don’t want to kind of swim upstream with, with that. It’s not going to work. So we’re constantly looking at, you know, what, what the scientists are saying. And so the logic, you know, and this is a work in progress, you know, there’s, you know, changes like introduction of so called modal logic into LBT, the logic of necessity and possibility, especially useful in anxiety because anxiety is all about possibility and uncertainty. So that’s one, one criticism that I’ve seen, you know, asked. I was doing a lecture in, in Romania recently in the Academy of Sciences, and one of the people there brought that up to me, and that was the answer that I gave. I mean, it’s the way the brain works.
Elliot
So that’s one. What other criticisms are there? That logic is limited again? I mean, the kind of thing that you were talking about.
Imi Lo
How would you address someone in existential midlife crisis with logic based everything, for example? Obviously, it comes with details and nuance, but if we just imagine, well, I.
Elliot
Mean, there’s, there’s, let’s say a midwife crisis, it’s, you know, I mean, these existentialists are great in talking about, you know, how life is limited. You know, we have a certain amount of time on earth, the meter is running, and you got to make the most of your life. I mean, there’s, you know, an existential crisis of somebody that’s, you know, say, mid middle age and thinking that, you know, they’re missing out on stuff and, you know, concerned about, you know, not getting, you know, dying before they accomplish stuff. The, you know, existentialism is very useful, you know, and other people, you know, who, who are not doing anything, you know, with their life. Jean Paul Sartre would say, you define yourself as a disappointed dream, hope or expectation because in order to be somebody, you have to take action, take constructive action. And so somebody who’s sitting around feeling like it’s useless because I’m going to die anyway. I’ve seen clients who have said, die anyway. What’s the point even doing anything? And, well, then you just simply define yourself as nothing. But if you try to do something with your life, you. You can make something of yourself.
Elliot
So what do you want to do?
Imi Lo
You know, so turn it into something. Belief and action based.
Elliot
Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. Because who you are is what you do, you know, kind of thing. And. And so here. And, I mean, we kind of come full circle because we were talking about, like, existential philosophy and analytic philosophy. And how could you not use existential philosophy when someone’s having an existential crisis? So, you know, the idea here. The idea here is that somebody is, you know, who has this existential crisis. We analyze their thinking. You know, if I’m mid age already, I’m closer to death. And if that’s the case, this is so terrible, horrible and awful. I can’t stand it. And I am a middle aged, so I just can’t stand this. So there’s the reasoning. So, one is, well, you’re constipating yourself behaviorally constipating yourself. You’re preventing yourself from doing stuff. And so, you know, what philosophies really would uncantipate you. What philosophies would make you help you to see that there’s, you know, that you can do stuff. And so the client answers that question, and it may be Sartre, like I said, that may resonate with somebody. Somebody else might, you know, see Nietzsche, you know, as a, you know, basically you’re the creator of values.
Elliot
That’s what you should be doing, creating values. And that might mean that might work for somebody. If you’re very religious, you know, what would God. You know, how do you become closer to God? You know, by actualizing yourself, you know, being. Creating greater being by doing or, you know, doing work that brings you closer somehow to God. And so LBT doesn’t say which philosophy to embrace. It allows the client, you know, to aspire to the philosophical lights that, you know, resonate for them. And so that’s your goals.
Imi Lo
I hear you drawing out the belief and value behind the person’s value system and then tackle it from there. That feels accurate to say. Nice. Thank you. Do you think I work a lot with very analytical, intellectually rigorous, and excitable people. Do you think it’s a particularly fit model for them, or do you think it just works with everyone? There are no particular better population to work with.
Elliot
Well, you know, I think that LBT, like any other modality, has its limits. And I also recently gone back and gotten, you know, done work in social, clinical social work. And I’ve seen lots of connections between my work in LBT and some various social work theories. And one aspect of LBT that it shares with many social work theories is the theory of empowerment. It has this theory of virtues. You’re capable as a human being aspiring to these higher reaches of human capacity. You can be courageous. You can be authentic and have temperance and self control and various other forms of human capacities. And you can continue to work and aspire to higher and higher capabilities within these areas. I think that’s, you know, that’s an extremely important aspect of LBT, and it appeals to a wide audience because people. People want to be empowered, people who are suffering, you know, theories of empowerment. LBT is not the only approach, but it’s eclectic enough to include them. See? So lots of theories, even, you know, interviewing approach to psychotherapy and various other types of theories of psychotherapy, person centered, obviously, as part of the domain of LBT, but they can be incorporated into it.
Elliot
You know, for some clients, emphasizing, you know, one aspect of theoretical approach versus another, in a very limited case, it may be just behavioral. So you may have individuals who are not especially able to grasp abstract concepts. And if they can’t grasp abstract concepts, then you might just try a lot of behavioral kinds of things, getting them to do things and helping them to develop these associative bonds between their behavioral, making behavioral changes at work to solve their problems or phobia or some other aspect. It’s purely behavioral, you know. So I’m not saying that LBT works for everybody, but it can work for a lot of people, you know, especially, you know, humans in search of being empowered and excited about, you know, aspiring to higher reaches of their human capacity.
Imi Lo
I hear you. Thank you. So we’re coming. Thank you for such a thorough introduction of what LBT is and giving a glimpse of what one form of philosophical counseling is. And I think it’s very powerful, and it’s really certainly getting a lot of attention. One more thing that I know a lot of my audience struggle with, and you have some expertise in, is perfectionism. So on the same line, can you say more about how, where philosophical inquiry can be beneficial in dealing, tackling perfectionism? Why do we have a. Perfectionism is a pandemic, and more, some people are just more prone to it. And, yeah, what can you offer us?
Elliot
Very, very good. And that is an area that I’ve written a book specifically addressing perfectionism, making peace with imperfection, which identifies ten different types of perfectionism that often mess people up in their life pursuits. And my studies have, especially my clinical studies, and also some surveys that I’ve done have indicated that many of the problems that people have are rooted in demands for perfection. And it’s nothing. You know, if you say you’re a perfectionist, you might mean different things. Some perfectionists are, you know, they call themselves perfectionists, but they don’t demand it. You know, they’re, they’re aspirational perfectionists. They say that they’re going to aspire, you know, to prefer perfection, but if they don’t get it, they don’t beat their heads up, you know, they beat their head against the wall. The demanding perfectionist does. See? So it’s okay to say, I’m going to shoot for the stars. I know I’m not going to get there, but I’m just going to use it as a, you know, as a way to motivate me. It’s another thing to say, I’m going to shoot for the stars, and I damn well better land on them. And the second way sets you up for failure.
Elliot
And, and when we trace the, the emotional reasoning chains that I’ve been talking about, these practical reasoning chains, very often, not always, but very often at the very top of that chain. You know, the highest order of belief in your belief system is a perfectionistic demand. For instance, I mentioned that if I make a mistake, that I’m a failure. Typically, people like that demand, they’re achievement perfectionists. They must achieve, and if they don’t, then they’re a failure. I didn’t. I made a mistake, so therefore I’m a failure. You can see how the irrational thinking just trickles down to the self damnation. So I can’t stand to live like this anymore. That’s another level of irrational thinking. And so oftentimes in LBT, we go after that demand for perfection. Because if you stop demanding the perfection, then if you make a mistake, well, it’s okay. You’re not a failure, because everybody makes mistakes. It’s okay. And so you’re not going to damn yourself and you’re not going to constipate yourself, and you’re just going to say, well, I just, you know, I’ll work at it, you know, and develop a philosophical idea about, you know, what it is to be comfortable.
Elliot
We call this metaphysical security secure in a world where human beings are imperfect, it may be, if you’re a religious person, it may be, well, you know, the only perfect being in the universe is God, you know, and I’m not God. If you’re an eastern, you know, take an eastern perspective, and you might shift away from yourself, you know, and see yourself as, you know, as inter, being with others, you know, and so there’s strength in community, you know, and as a part of a larger, you know, group of individuals, you know, cosmologically. And.
Imi Lo
It just comes to me as to how powerful this approach is, because it is about fundamentally rewiring a value system that pretty much underlines everything, like you said, neurologically, our thoughts and feelings. So it’s a very thorough approach. It’s like it’s working from the root. It’s really a hopeful approach. How do you see the future for philosophical counseling and LPT specifically both? Basically, where do you see the field heading in the next 510 years?
Elliot
Well, that’s a great, great question. The association, the main association of Philosophical Practice in the United States is the national Philosophical Counseling association. And it was, I co founded it in 1992, and the basis of that, it was then called the American Society for Philosophy, Counseling, and psychotherapy was to bring together philosophy and psychotherapy and get people talking on both sides so we don’t reinvent the wheel, you know, that were talking the same thing. My own history of what I was doing and what Albert Ellis was doing. And when we started talking together, it helped to create the infrastructure for logic based therapy. And so thats what the goal essentially is and has always been that to incorporate, you know, the tenants of LBT and psychotherapy together. So we’re constantly growing. That’s why I went back to school to become a social worker, because how.
Imi Lo
Many degrees do you have, Eliot?
Elliot
But I did that because I thought that it was very important to represent, you know, in what I. What the national, you know, philosophical counseling associated with seeking to achieve. And that’s this integration of logic based therapy as, you know, as a major modality, you know, a very eclectic, you know, an open one for psychotherapy, as well as philosophical counseling. These, you know, those who say that these are separate, I are. Their ideas are bankrupt. They paint themselves into a corner behind it.
Imi Lo
Yes, they are bankrupt.
Elliot
But that’s the goal, you know, to integrate this into mainstream psychotherapy.
Imi Lo
I hear you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, I’m going to be greedy. I want you to help me sum up what would be one most important takeaway, apart from go and look up your website and sign up to a course. What is one takeaway you hope philistiners can gain from hearing our conversation today.
Elliot
Well, be thinking, you know, in terms of what your, you know, what you’re telling yourself, what are, you know, your. Is it, we ended, we talked about the perfectionism, you know, are you a, are you a demanding perfectionist? If you are a demanding perfectionist, what sort of demanding perfectionist are you? Then read my book on making peace with imperfection to find out. But being a perfectionism, as it was brought up at the end here is a very common problem. And you may not even think that you’re a perfectionist, but you may be, you know, this is, a large percentage of people are. So that’s a practical, you know, suggestion. Other than that, yeah, I’ll take a look at some of the work that’s been done on it. If you’re a very, if you see yourself as a very thoughtful, philosophical kind of individual, I think you really, you know, take to logic based therapy like a duck to water. I think you enjoy it. And don’t be afraid to apply philosophy to life. That’s, I think, the major thing here that I discovered through my process of living through this as an academician as well as a practitioner.
Elliot
Philosophy’s got power and work at it. Try to understand your philosophical thoughts and then apply them to your life and ask yourself, are you consistently doing it? Many times you have a philosophy of life that you really think is great, but you don’t use it, you know, or you use it inconsistently. These are some ideas that stir your thoughts up.
Imi Lo
Do you have a favorite philosopher?
Elliot
Well, I, you know, I owe a lot to Aristotle, so I do think of him as sort of the, one of the founders of logic based therapy, since he was the one that started the stuff with practical reasoning. So if there’s any founder of it in ancient history, it’s certainly Aristotle.
Imi Lo
I love the value ethics stuff. And eudaimonia, which is very much relevant to what we know.
Elliot
That’s right. Eudaimonia.
Imi Lo
Eudaimonia. It’s not happiness, but. I don’t know. I can go on the soapbox, but I don’t think happiness is a very good translation for it.
Elliot
Self realization is probably better.
Imi Lo
Oh, yeah, much better. So, final, final one. If people want to pursue philosophical counseling or I think there are different names with consulting coaching with people of slightly different background, or logic based therapy, where can they go to find a practitioner.
Elliot
If they want to get, get help from a practitioner? Yeah, we have a website for the National Philosophical Counseling Association, Npcassos, npc assoc.org, and there’s a practitioner’s list. And on that practitioners list are practitioners from all over the world. And we have centers now for logic based therapy in many, many places already. We have a new one in Croatia, we have one in South Africa, Taiwan, India, United States. And of course, we’re working on others going forth. There’s one in Romania. I left that one out. That’s a big one in Romania. So there’s. There’s also programs, you know, in philosophical practice, we work with some of the master’s programs that are now, you know, doing biologic based therapy and philosophical practice. West University in Timisura, Romania, is a fully online program that you can get a master’s degree and you learn a lot about LBT. And I teach there. So you get me as a teacher.
Imi Lo
How. What is it called? West.
Elliot
West, yeah. West University, Timisora, Romania. Yeah. And an interesting fact. Philosophical practice, philosophical counseling is now recognized a profession in Romania by the government. The romanian government has recognized this, so it’s a very important precedent. And we’re working in collaboration, our institute’s working in collaboration with the Romania to start to settle the various standards by which the practice is regulated.
Imi Lo
I just looked it up. It’s the only English speaking one.
Elliot
Yeah. It’s purely in English. That’s right. So, you know, it’s a good program and there’s others that are. That are forming. I’m not at liberty to speak of some that are in the works right now, but then we have a program in India as well. A master’s in logic based therapy in India.
Imi Lo
Oh, wow. Lovely. Thank you so, so much. You’ve given us a lot of foot of thoughts and practical resources. Thank you so much for your time today. And I’m sure we’ll speak again at some point. Our cross will come again.
Elliot
Very good.
Imi Lo
All right, thank you for your time. Have a wonderful day. All right, well, that’s the recording, then. I will probably edit it out. Thank you, though. It’s really useful. I know I’ve asked you probably some really basic questions. Assuming people don’t know much about it, I still think it would be good to spark people’s curiosity to look into it more.
Elliot
It’s logic based therapy and consultation theory and applications. It’s a roman and little failed book. It’s. Yeah.
Imi Lo
What might people get from your latest book? What might people get from your latest book?
Elliot
What they’ll get is it’s an edited. It’s an edited book and it covers various areas of application of logic based therapy. It includes material in logic based therapy and psychotherapy group work and using it in groups. It also includes stuff using logic based therapy, doing philosophy for children, and it even has stuff about politics and romantic love and so many different things, which leads me to. Yeah, so it’s probably the most comprehensive treatment under one cover of logic based therapy done by some, you know, well known practitioners and theoreticians of logic based therapies. There’s a number of different essays in there, and they’re all, they’re all well written and well thought through. So I think your audience might appreciate that. There’s also another book that’s coming out in October. That’s actually pretty much next month. This is already September, I guess. And that’s a book on love. And it’s are you making love or just having sex?
Imi Lo
Oh, I love that.
Elliot
And its use of, application of logic based therapy to romantic love. And so for those who think that logic based therapy is just a very formal approach, and they might want to read that to find out that, no, no. It gets into the nitty gritty feelings and experiences, distinguished love and just sex and how they come together. What makes, what are the conditions that can help to promote romantic love? Enduring intimacy.
Imi Lo
Yes. Oh, certainly sounds pertinent, relevant, exciting. Thank you. All right. Well, I’m going to let you go, but thank you once again, and let me know if there’s anything I can contribute to this.
Elliot
Excellent. Very good.
Imi Lo
Thank you. Speak then. Bye. Stay in touch. Bye.
Imi Lo is a mental health consultant with extensive experience in mental health and psychotherapy across diverse international settings. She specializes in working with highly sensitive, intense and gifted adults. Her books, 'Emotional Sensitivity and Intensity' and 'The Gift of Intensity' are internationally acclaimed and available in multiple languages. She integrates psychological understanding with both Eastern and Western philosophies, such as Buddhism and Stoicism.